Returning to the subject of the Department Of Dilettante Research - summarizing it in one sentence:
Everybody takes each other's course.
(1) I don't mean this literally, since I'm hoping for scores of participants, while "everybody takes each other's course" is only feasible for a dept. of five or six max. But "everybody takes each other's course" conveys the SPIRIT of the enterprise.
(2) For this to work, people will have to create the authority within themselves to teach and must simply not let up on their urge to understand. A reason that departments of dilettante research didn't spontaneously emerge within Why Music Sucks, ilX, Poptimists, etc. was people's ultimate refusal to teach.
(3) So we'll make demands on each other. Would it help to institutionalize such demands? They may be up to the teacher. Pressure, force, rewards, structure, deadlines? Partially applied onerous requirements (PAOR): "State ideas rather than alluding to them." "You don't get to leave the room until I'm convinced I understand you and that you understand me."
(4) One goal here is to reach across space - social space, cultural space. So not just interdisciplinary but "intergalactic." This means we often start from misunderstandings.
(5) So I want this to take place in an open space. Is the department merely in an open space or is the department an open space? But the space would include outsiders and kibitzers and naysayers and those who don't "get" the requirements. I'm looking for people who are willing to fly with me, but my instinct here is that I also need to be in sight of those who won't fly and those who fly elsewhere.
(6) I don't know if this is relevant, but the think tank my brother is in (cbpp) was one of the "high-impact nonprofits" discussed in the book Forces For Good: the book's summary includes this sentence: "high-impact nonprofits work with and through organizations and individuals outside themselves to create more impact than they ever could have achieved alone." I'm seeking colleagues, not necessarily world changers, but an eye and a hand to fellow spirits may be wise. Are there any fellow spirits?
Links:
The original post for Department Of Dilettante Research
Other koganbot threads on the Department Of Dilettante Research, in reverse order
Poptimists threads on the Department Of Dilettante Research, in reverse order
Several hours after I made the first Department Of Dilettante Research post I got my column at the Las Vegas Weekly, which is one reason I didn't keep posting regularly about the department. Now I no longer have the job, so perhaps I'll make time for more of these posts.
(1) I don't mean this literally, since I'm hoping for scores of participants, while "everybody takes each other's course" is only feasible for a dept. of five or six max. But "everybody takes each other's course" conveys the SPIRIT of the enterprise.
(2) For this to work, people will have to create the authority within themselves to teach and must simply not let up on their urge to understand. A reason that departments of dilettante research didn't spontaneously emerge within Why Music Sucks, ilX, Poptimists, etc. was people's ultimate refusal to teach.
(3) So we'll make demands on each other. Would it help to institutionalize such demands? They may be up to the teacher. Pressure, force, rewards, structure, deadlines? Partially applied onerous requirements (PAOR): "State ideas rather than alluding to them." "You don't get to leave the room until I'm convinced I understand you and that you understand me."
(4) One goal here is to reach across space - social space, cultural space. So not just interdisciplinary but "intergalactic." This means we often start from misunderstandings.
(5) So I want this to take place in an open space. Is the department merely in an open space or is the department an open space? But the space would include outsiders and kibitzers and naysayers and those who don't "get" the requirements. I'm looking for people who are willing to fly with me, but my instinct here is that I also need to be in sight of those who won't fly and those who fly elsewhere.
(6) I don't know if this is relevant, but the think tank my brother is in (cbpp) was one of the "high-impact nonprofits" discussed in the book Forces For Good: the book's summary includes this sentence: "high-impact nonprofits work with and through organizations and individuals outside themselves to create more impact than they ever could have achieved alone." I'm seeking colleagues, not necessarily world changers, but an eye and a hand to fellow spirits may be wise. Are there any fellow spirits?
Links:
The original post for Department Of Dilettante Research
Other koganbot threads on the Department Of Dilettante Research, in reverse order
Poptimists threads on the Department Of Dilettante Research, in reverse order
Several hours after I made the first Department Of Dilettante Research post I got my column at the Las Vegas Weekly, which is one reason I didn't keep posting regularly about the department. Now I no longer have the job, so perhaps I'll make time for more of these posts.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 11:40 am (UTC)"Course" as in "I follow along his road for a bit"; "class" as in "I imagine myself into her sensibility and social class."
Endorsement of "Of"
Date: 2008-11-20 12:07 pm (UTC)Re: Endorsement of "Of"
Date: 2008-11-20 05:35 pm (UTC)Re: Endorsement of "Of"
Date: 2008-11-20 06:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 12:14 pm (UTC)"The secret to their success lies in how high-impact nonprofits mobilize every sector of society - government, business, nonprofits, and the public - to be a force for good. In other words, greatness has more to do with how nonprofits work outside the boundaries of their organizations than with how they manage their own internal operations."
"They share financial resources and help other nonprofits succeed at fundraising. They give away their model and proprietary information in an open-source approach. They cultivate leadership and talent for their larger network, rather than hoarding the best people. And they work in coalitions to influence legislation or conduct grassroots advocacy campaigns, without worrying too much about which organization gets the credit."
[Of course, this sentence jumped out at me: "Self-Help also followed this path, creating a secondary loan market and expanding its innovative lending models through mainstream financial players such as Wachovia and Fannie Mae, thereby changing the industry's practices and helping large companies reach historically underserved markets."]
PAOR
Date: 2008-11-20 01:12 pm (UTC)Maybe you either have these requirements within you or you don't, as a feature of your character. If you have it you probably also have a basic intuition about when to put these requirements into effect and when not to. You wouldn't want them always in effect since sometimes you want students/readers/colleagues to figure things out for themselves, sometimes your whole point is the varied and slippery nature of the terms you're using, sometimes a good new idea is full of problems (I'd say that almost any good new idea will be full of problems, contradictions, half-thought metaphors, uncertain possibilities) and can't be well-stated but should be put forth anyway. My Department Of Dilettante Research ideas are hardly stated in full. The point is, when someone calls PAOR on you, and you can't elaborate, or won't, it's a good indication that you're talking out your ass.
calls PAOR on you
Can be pronounced "pears" or "pares," or "pours" or "pores," depending on your mood and purposes.
(Of course, my insistence that the department be (in) an open space is based on the assumption that people who are incapable of doing the PAOR (PAORing?) can and sometimes will be crucial to the proceedings.)
As for understanding - I still like Thomas Kuhn's exhortation:
When reading the works of an important thinker look first for the apparent absurdities in the text and ask yourself how a sensible person could have written them. When you find an answer..., when those passages make sense, then you may find that more central passages, ones you previously thought you understood, have changed their meaning.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 01:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 01:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 06:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 01:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 02:52 pm (UTC)None of this means that it shouldn't be tried, but - I hate that I'm prejudiced about it - I'm really skeptical that such sites would draw a crowd that's even half as interesting as ilX or
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 03:58 pm (UTC)i suspect dave is right, that this project will blossom best if initially hooked into something (the right thing) which people come to anyway --being an add-on will provide a steady supply of at best semi-dedicated kibitzers, which is the element that seems highly important as well as hardest directly and reliably to organise
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 04:09 pm (UTC)huffington is much less parasitic than obwi or CT; it's made itself the centre of the discussion as well as its own spin-off; where as timber and wings are basically always responding to things elsewhere -- so they're already the conversation hanging off the thing (hence you would have to be the conversation hanging off the conversation)
(is that any clearer? don't think it is...)
anyway, seems to me the key is a regular energy influx from uncommited randoms -- enough that unexpected newbies stay... but yes, the question is, what would have to be the honeypot?
my sense of it -- formally -- ius that the honeypot is something lots of different kinds of people can buzz round, and some of those people can drift in and out of the DDR, but when they take a holiday from your regime, they don't go far (just back to the honeypot); and can return when they've had a rest and a think
the prob. w.ilx and LJ is that there's nowhere "go for a rest" which reminds them to redirect back to you after a whle -- it's more all or nothing
(OK i feel like brane is glue today)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 05:44 pm (UTC)OK, let's do a comparison:
Discussion on today's Huffington Post started by an economist who seems to know his shit.
A much better discussion on ILE, started by me, the limitations of the discussion being one of many things that made me realize that I would need a Department Of Dilettante Research if I wanted to find people who would genuinely carry out the discussion I wanted, since I was fundamentally alone on that thread. (Not that I didn't get a lot from the presence of others; but no one was willing to take my course or to teach his own.)
So, how would having had the second discussion at the Huffington Post have made it a better discussion?
*Whereas I could see the slight possibility of such a sustained exploration taking place at Obsidian Wings. Not that I would say, "I've got this idea for a dep't of dil research, let's go to Obsidian Wings." Just that when Dave suggested Huffington Post I was thinking, "I don't see it happening there in a million years, whereas maybe at Obsidian Wings it could happen in a thousand."
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 07:13 pm (UTC)Again, the lefty news blogs aren't the only example of this happening online, they're just the ones that come readily to mind.
The reason I keep jumping the gun in this way is that it seems to me that to pull people into your department, you have to have a place for people to get to know you first. I suppose you could strike up individual correspondences and push them to post in various places you currently put your thoughts. But a central location on a prominent site not usually known for any particular "voice" on pop culture would (1) allow you to set the rules, tone, and voice to some extent and (2) would draw in both regulars you already know through regular online community outreach (poptimists, former and current ilxors, other rock critics, etc.) AND lots of outsiders with widely differing backgrounds, most of whom will not have a fully formed, insider, or even particularly strong set of feelings and beliefs about what you'd be talking about.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 07:19 pm (UTC)But again, for a department like this to be a reality -- meaning a place where you would be employed as well as participating, and could offer sufficient gathering room that isn't beholden to the limits of LJ or a less formal blog network -- I do think that it needs to exist somewhere from which it isn't the main attraction (kind of applying the Disney music model to it, financially, the hook being: why would a place not interested in pop culture all of a sudden GET interested? The answer being there just aren't very many outlets to even attempt what you're suggesting here. The closest I've seen are sort of higher-end blogger groups with biggish-name critics, like Xgau at NAJP, or maybe the bloggers at Rhapsody and AMG and formerly URGE and a few other sites).
no subject
Date: 2008-11-21 02:08 am (UTC)Maybe, but I'm not seeing it in the Huffington Post at all. Again, look above at what I'm saying about DDR: Everybody takes each other's course. State your ideas rather than merely alluding to them. You don't get to leave the room until I'm convinced you understand me and that I understand you. Potential topics for me to "teach": Thomas Kuhn, Relativism So What?, How Is It That Our Visceral Responses To Music Fall Along Class Lines?, How Do We Go About Rethinking Our Concept Of Social Class? --Think of courses I might be taking: Cumulative Advantage (from an economist or a sociologist), Contemporary Christian Music, Astrophysics, Pro Wrestling, Bureaucracies, Street Gangs (if people who know about such things are willing to put themselves out for my course, I'd be interested in doing the same for theirs). And if we run the full course, that might mean four weeks on a topic or four months or four years.
(This doesn't mean that I or someone else doing something interesting about popular and semipopular music at Huffington or someplace wouldn't be a good idea, but I don't see how a Department Of Dilettante Research takes place there. I don't even see how a rolling teenpop or rolling country would. Maybe I'm just not being imaginative, but I don't get this.)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-21 03:56 am (UTC)I guess I'm starting to understand how far from (just) the pop-cultural this goes, but it also seems to me that a pop-cultural foundation or "base" (like in a children's game) might be the best bet for making something like this happen on a much larger scale. It's a blind spot within academia (unlike whole disciplines that probably believe they're perfectly within their rights to exist as part of an academic institution). And by starting in the blind spot, you can draw attention to your process, which holds true for Kuhn or class or discussion of the new Britney album, which might encompass a bunch of these things. And it's the process that separates you from academia, too. But wrangling people in is something that I think invariably boils down to venue and subject matter first, since you can only determine and discover the process by participating to begin with. (I hope I'm being at least somewhat helpful in asking questions from angles that may seem to be too many steps ahead...)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-21 08:44 am (UTC)But I don't think it's coincidence that these are exceptional events - academics are being paid for teaching, most of the time, in contexts where the 'authority' is not bestowed by consent among the participants, but by the institution, and the incentive for 'understanding' is passing the course. I also think that things need to be time-delimited, i.e. anything with 'mutual understanding' as the goal rather than 'seek to understand each other for X hours', will rapidly feel oppressive if conversation hits a block. I don't think this affects the core of what you're saying, which seems to me to be that to make something productive out of online discussion might require contravention of the social protocols which govern most online discussion - i.e. if there's a reason why Ilx and poptimists aren't delivering, change the ground rules. And practically: I think the workshop model has a significant difference from the seminar course - because it takes participants out of 'everyday' life and allows them to focus on the topic, concentration can be maintained (for a short while). I don't see how that energy can be kept up on an ongoing basis. I know discussion forums or message boards are used extensively in distance teaching now - but usually led by assessment, i.e. participation is stimulated by the formal requirement to post something substantive X times a week. A reading group might be a better model for what you're interested in since participation is kind of combined with assessment in the sense that we could take as implicit the agreement to 'understand' a chapter a week, or 'understand' each others responses to that chapter.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-21 08:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-24 06:07 am (UTC)Or another path might be to assemble a set of interesting people with no unifying topic, though of course we each start teaching on the basis of our own preoccupations - but people aren't chosen specifically because I have an idea in advance of what sort of thing they'd be likely to contribute.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-25 05:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-13 07:22 am (UTC)i think the formula you started your post with gets right at and would correct a flaw in academia's standard operating procedure, which perhaps means that the formula also aims at what the d.d.r. should be aiming at. i often find myself wishing that academics would take each other's courses. even within a department of moderate-plus size, it's all too easy for them to be ignorant of anything of their colleagues' work except the name of the topic - maybe the position taken relative to other work in the field. and they are woefully ignorant of anything their colleagues might do in the classroom with students, which at least in a field like philosophy seems like a uniquely source of revelation into how a person thinks.
i have heard that faculty members at elite schools do not disdain attending courses by their colleagues. but perhaps those are often lecture courses.
-j
no subject
Date: 2008-12-13 08:20 am (UTC)(1) last year, wanting to get some more practice teaching, wanting to step up and actually put something behind my belief that higher education ought not be confined to the academy, and maybe wanting a little bit of a chance to teach things i would normally feel discouraged from teaching, i considered offering a course at the twin cities experimental college, (http://excotc.org/) a free-form open university sort of thing. but once i sat down to plan out courses i was utterly confounded by the fact that the course i taught would lack the institutional context i was used to, in particular, the unexamined assumption that i had the authority to make all the decisions and tell people what to do. in a 'real' course you can set a large amount of work because there is a framework in which students will tolerate and can at least be gotten to do the work without undue coercion. it seems hard to exact that level of dedication from students with much less material or institutional commitment to a course - and without it, how can you read any philosophy if you're only going to read a little bit? moreover, even though i thought it that in principle it would was good and right to assign material that was in some way not typical of an institutional course, i felt most comfortable assigning certain canonical texts - but then it seemed my main justification for assigning them in an exco course was just 'people think these are important', even if i didn't especially think so. (i know there's a lot wrong with this - it's just an anecdote.)
(2) a big problem occurs to me, which seems to directly confict with your perfectionist goals for the kind of conversations that you want to happen in the d.d.r. it seems to apply especially to humane study, but who knows, maybe to sciences and the applied arts. the way most people seem to improve their understanding of cultural objects - art, philosophy, history - is incrementally, doing enough reading or listening or looking or watching to work up enough to say about it that they feel it expresses what they got from it; and then they put their take on the work up against those of others, and react accordingly. it seems like it's because of this that a large part of what anyone says about what they've experienced is severely limited, and readily dissolves under scrutiny. more experienced readers easily draw the conclusion from this that if they could just get others to go slowly, pour over every word, in sequence, from the beginning, they could get to the ideal reading without having to pass through the intermediate stages. but this seems like it might give short shrift to the large part that sheer mimicry plays in the process of coming to understand something. people like it - and when you take it away from them, they're not sure what to say anymore. along those lines, if you try to take someone through a reading slowly, forcing them to always explain their ideas about what they've read, they find it deadly boring, tedious. to keep them involved, you have to let them get a little ahead of themselves for a while.
-j