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warthoginrome writes:I don't know if you had the chance to run into this news, so I wanted to point it out, because the topic is common to the entire asian pop scene.Checking this out myself, I see that American news outlets have been all over this story, reporting that the incident has provoked pushback and even outrage in Japan, people calling the treatment of Minami unfair and saying it amounts to bullying (many people assuming she had little choice in the matter of close-cropping her hair).
The story is about Minami Minegishi (20 y.o.), member of the japanese group AKB48. A tabloid published some photographs of her leaving the apartment of her boyfriend, Alan Shirahama (19 y.o.), member of the boy band Generations.
As you may guess, Minami is bound to a "contract" which prohibits any kind of relationships. After the bomb exploded, she decided (spontaneously?) to cut her hair and record a public apology. In the video she apologizes to colleagues, family, and fans, reproaching herself for having been "thoughtless and immature," and specifying that "I don't believe just doing this means I can be forgiven for what I did, but the first thing I thought was that I don't want to quit AKB48." In the meantime, the agency demoted her from the "senior" to the "trainee" rank, for "for causing a nuisance to the fans."
I don't really know why, but as soon as I saw the video, the T-ARA controversy came to my mind, because I find it hard to tolerate the unlimited power of the so called netizens (better, customers). This is really too much. I know that, after all, Minami is more fortunate than many boys and girls of her age living in much tougher conditions around the globe, but I feel bad for her anyway.
Some American (I assume) commentators at The Young Turks provided their own perspective, and my crap detector says that they didn't actually research the culture, that they're making guesses as to the attitudes behind the no-dating rule. ("You're no good unless you're virginal, you're no good unless you're pure, you're no good unless I actually have a shot at sleeping with you sometime in the future.") But then, I haven't researched it either. And just because they're guessing doesn't mean they're wrong.
Minami's in a better position than T-ara was as far as garnering sympathy, since the Netizens who were bullying T-ara were portraying T-ara as bullies themselves, which meant that attempts to defend T-ara (and to understand and accept T-ara and their overmatched CEO as humans who get to screw up) could be cast as attempts to defend bullying. On the other hand, T-ara are full-scale stars with a fanbase that's not going to completely abandon them, whereas Minegishi is one replaceable member of a vast enterprise. On the third hand, I know little more than zilch about J-pop and Japan and AKB48, and I don't assume Japan is Korea, and I don't assume there's a homogenous thing called "Japanese attitudes" and "Korean attitudes" anyway, any more than there's a homogenous thing called "American attitudes": there are always arrays of behavior and ongoing tensions and arguments over gender and sex issues (there wouldn't have been an injunction against adultery in Moses' day if people weren't committing adultery (as well as worshiping false gods and failing to honor mommy and daddy)).
Readers who understand K-pop and J-pop more than I do should comment. In the T-ara affair, fans and Netizens didn't hold just one view, and I think in general agencies and performers are far too timid in giving way to what they imagine are fan desires. (Not that all agencies impose such restrictions in the first place.) But also, performers like HyunA, for instance, are able to get energy from the limits that some fans and censors try to impose on them, since part of HyunA'a act is to cross the border into what she's supposedly not allowed to do. I wouldn't imagine it would ruin her image or devastate her fanbase if she were found to have spent the night with a guy. But I don't know. I assume (though I've not researched this) that Brown Eyed Girls are expected to have affairs and dates etc., and are even willing to stoke the rumors that they're sleeping with each other. And one of the Wonder Girls just got married.
By the way, I didn't attend much to G-Dragon's marijuana scandal in 2011, but my impression at the time was that it wasn't that big a deal, nor was it that potentially damaging (his hair follicles tested weakly positive for marijuana, and he explained this away by saying that he imagined it happened 'cause of a time he'd gotten massively drunk and someone offered him a cigarette, which he assumed was tobacco, and he felt he'd have been rude to refuse; this doesn't seem like the most convincing or contrite explanation). If you're going to be a bad boy, you gotta do something bad every now and then.
Something I'm curious about is whether, in Korea and Japan, rock and hip-hop stars (as opposed to pop stars) are expected to hew to limits in the same fashion. By "hew to limits" I don't mean "are subject to the same behavioral injunctions," since I assume they're not (I assume they are allowed to date and that rock and hip-hop guys are supposed to seem sexually active), but rather the idea that you don't want to offend or challenge your fans or appear genuinely arrogant rather than grateful to them for your success. I'd think, in contrast, that you'd lose cred if you seemed too compliant, too full of gratitude. But that's me looking at things from my perspective, here in America.
One thing about Netizen behavior: although it may not be absolutely pure self-expression — you have to have Internet access, you have to have time (both of which require money), and anyway the messages that have money backing them up become the ones sloshing around the culture and are therefore more likely to be the ones that spontaneously come out of people's mouths, even poor people's — it still, as expression goes, is more bottom-up than most. And though minority opinions can be drowned out, they can't simply be shut up. Anyway, I recently read this excerpt from Tom Slee's No One Makes You Shop At Wal-Mart, which is on a different subject — how free consumer choice can sometimes have results that no one wants. I don't make a direct connection in my mind between his thesis, on the one hand, and, on the other, the combination of paparazzi and fan selfishness that afflicts Minami. But when something seems not to be working, it's good to think why, and what could be done. Can a mass of people teach themselves how to think, how to plan? Is there a structure that could help us think and plan better?
At a minimum, what if some record company or agency announced that it would never make disciplinary decisions for any reason without first waiting two weeks?
*[UPDATE: The apology video was taken down from YouTube; here are some excerpts that are still up.]
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no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 01:25 am (UTC)http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/14546-news-akb48-team-b-minegishi-minami-demoted-to-kenkyuusei/?p=267852
The reaction of the fandom is weird this time because of all of the international non-fandom attention the issue is getting, which is raising some territorial hackles. Compare to the international attention that AKB got last time when they revealed their literal pastiche member Eguchi Aimi: http://youtu.be/uLReYn1AAgY
Even people who hate the purity system are feeling shades of offended by all of the tarring-by-same-brush being done by international coverage.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 04:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 08:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 09:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 05:42 pm (UTC)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxOQP7_CY9I
When Momoiro Clover released this video, the conversation that followed was one of the most radicalized things I’ve ever seen: places like Arama saying that they were sluts like AKB, and fans acting like this was a mistake, something that never should be talked about. And people like me that thought it was just another game with popular culture (biker gangs eating ice-cream in a defiantly way) treated as if we were retarded. Then later, not so long ago, when they decided to do one of their routines during a live show (walking over the crowd), somebody touched one of the girls on their genitals in a non-accidental way. Somebody linked to a forum about the group and the reactions I saw were so brainwashed, so inbreeded with their own PR (who could like the members of the group in a different way than the one we do?), it was such a case of “thought police”, of “it is inadmissible to thought about them on a sexual way”, that obviously, what you get is that people really admire that, their purity. If is not an issue, you don’t talk so much about it.
And the thing with idols is that this sort of thought police always appears. Is almost never a “macro” thing, something that is so abject and exploitative that looks self-evident (but check AKBN 0 (non-related) to see a case where that thing is really happening, and there is certainly people that follow them, I hate that group) is mostly the “micro” realm where you can see how things are evolving, how everything is dumbing down, how the new fans are taking as the gospel the worst tendencies in the fandom, etc. And suddenly, the chair where you sat is not there anymore. The things that I hate with AKB for example are fan charts where fans explain which girls are nicer/professional on handshake events, the fixation people have with the oshimen/oshihen thing or when people dismissed one of the girls that recently graduated because she wasn’t enough compromised with the group because she didn’t attend the show that allegedly was “their dream” (the event management has been selling as their big objective for years). Or really, all the micro-machismos.
Is not just with this fandom, I’ve followed other groups from other countries and it is always the same.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 05:44 pm (UTC)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92fm1HdORYY
Currently, when they sing that part, the audience does a response. Is a sort of “uh”, as if they were blushing by that revelation. Again, around 3:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YBum55SwAg
Then you remember, that the old fans sometimes were called “older brothers”, and you remember that the little sister fantasy (sexual but not mature, friendly and close but not unknown as a stranger) is really popular in that community. And somehow, the entire song meaning has changed (again, maybe is implicit in the lyrics). Your choice is to join the chorus or get pissed off.
What I mean, is that doing that, alienating everybody that doesn’t act in their way, they can self-mythologize themselves, be the “real” fans (of course, if everybody else run away), decide in how things should be done*, and mainly, prioritize their narratives over other people (there was a market study about the potential of the otaku consumer, and with a very broad range of things you could be an otaku (I should mention how things that girls or women mostly do, like reading mobile novels weren’t considered for many people to be “real” otaku things) and the potential market was something like 3 or 4 million people. Japan’s population is around 127 million. Boy bands have been monopolizing the charts for decades, but do you get stories about them? Not, you get how this or that AKB fan bought thousands of copies of the same single. So again, those girls are nothing, look what a “real” fan is. Is really monochromatic, and the way they are usually criticized, with moralistic overtones and all that, is part of the same “strange loop”. Otakus are very interested on theory written about them, so they behave in a way, that everything becomes a feedback process. Critique becomes useless and they still are being talked about. Trolling, in other terms.
*There are lots of small groups where the manager or the composer is an otaku. Some of them are quite great. I don’t want to paint a very black or white picture, there are positive outcomes, and lots of things I dislike. For example, T-Palette Records is a record label that only releases idol music. The guy behind is a Hello! Project otaku, and also is, I think, the main guy for Tower Records in Japan. The first group they got was Negicco, a local idol group that has been going around for nearly a decade almost never playing out of their city (promoting onions). The main composer of Negicco, also was a fan of the group that decided to show his (very nice) music to them. And right is when people are starting to become aware of them.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 06:34 pm (UTC)I actually love those charts. You're assuming that people react the same way to those charts in how they judge the girls, but at the same time there are those who like that Lovetan and Paruru are pretty much terrible at handshakes, so much that they made jokes about Paruru, Milky, and Daasu's manners in that sense during one of the best MCs during this year's Request Hour concert. Just because we make those charts doesn't mean that we take it all seriously.
Oshimen thing, eh. Call me MD.
Dismissing Yuka? It's not all dismissal. Her forgoing Tokyo Dome makes sense for her own career, but it's also a legitimate sign that she's ready to leave this franchise.
The self-performance aspect interests me, because the dynamics associated with Big-Name Fans and how fan communities relate to each other, and the external world, can exist somewhat independently of the subjects of the fandom.
With the advent of geek-chic, there are various romantizations of the nerd/geek/otaku, in different forms. There are old-guard who oppose the mainstreaming of fandom and want to return to more isolated experiences, while self-proclaimed otaku idols reclaim previously derogatory labels like otaku, hentai, lolicon, and hikkikomori, turning them into endearing joke traits. So you get BNFs preening under the attention and deciding to act as epitomies of stereotypical otaku behavior, both the good and the bad. As more "normal" people enter fandom territories and try to draw lines of appropriate behavior, ("we won't be those kind of otaku") they react by shoving the undesirable aspects into the newcomers' faces. Whether new fans succumb to fandom dictates or are driven away because of it, it reinforces the pride of the otaku troll acting out.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 02:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 07:55 pm (UTC)Momoiro certainly share a pattern in image terms (even the same songwriters) with groups from that same company (some came before, some are related, some not). A really “clean” image. Maybe the group has transcended those origins, or that image is mediated in a different way, in another context, for another audience. But certainly is there. Maybe they don’t do gravure, but they also appear on those same magazines. Just not doing gravure, just being goofy, or funny, being “themselves”. Even if they are a lot of fun, and people love them because of that, or their energy, or how they act, I think, as women, their public image is very narrow. I mean, Reni this year is 20 years old, Kanako is 19. Do they really have the chance to act in another way? Express themselves in different ways than how they are perceived by the mainstream public or how their fans expect them to behave? In that way is how I think “purity” is omnipresent for the group, as something they can leave behind. Maybe is not on their contract, but certainly there are people that want them to be in that way without changes.
As a side commentary, after watching how many minor idols are almost starving to death, or their income is so dismal, I see gravure as any other source of income. Most likely by their choices or the chances they had, they are not going to get good jobs. Having an idol life is sort of the same chain of mini-jobs and exploitation, but having fans, sort of having fun with what you do. That is the reason why I’m very picky about fans acting and behaving with the privilege of consumers and rating their “emotional work” (their emotions, intimacy, bodies,lifes) to use Arlie Russell Hochschild’s terminology as mere disposable products. I think is a complete lack of empathy for the human beings you say you are a fan of. And also, doesn’t make the world a much better place.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 01:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-09 04:41 pm (UTC)That said, askbask, let me quote that youtube video with regards to AKB fans feeling offended. It's not about the purity thing.
"I woke up and suddenly one day every single news outlet in the fucking world had something to say about AKB48 ... However, I find the lack of facts about AKB48 to be atrocious. ... Suddenly, this is bringing up the topic of idol culture in mass western media. Even news outlets that I respect to a certain degree, like the Young Turks, are talking about it, and talking about the sexualisation of idols, and talking about how they all look like 12 year olds, and I don't want to hear about it. because that is a whole social monograph that has to be looked into, and delved into, that has to be researched, and not seeing the forest for the trees. Something about it strikes me as this sense of western superiority that's coming out again, and it's one of the only times when this subtle sense of racism can creep into this and become "we're so much better than Japanese people because Americans and Europeans don't lust after girls who look 12."'
Then she goes on to say how the news outlets are happily blowing this wide open with broad "LOL JAPAN" strokes, and by doing so, and with reactions like yours, (Well fuck them if they feel they're the ones who should be offended.) suddenly throw all of the fans, even the ones who are the ones delving into it and doing the research and standing against the complacent, into the same "butthurt otaku" cage. That's what's offensive.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 02:16 am (UTC)I think in this particular case it IS pretty black and white. What was done dumb, damaging, ugly, and the signals sent are very clear. So if they get some facts and circumstances wrong otherwise it's not as important as the fact that yes, this is worth reporting on and condemning.
And if they don't agree with that and think this is more about ideas of 'western superiority' then I don't know what to say. For one thing these places are pretty damn quick to criticise western pop culture as well. If you're a fan who doesn't find this important and reprehensible, and worthy of attention/ systematic criticism then I don't have much sympathy left. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards more intelligent, well-researched western coverage of Asian pop culture. It's not in a great state, I agree.
In this case I find it hard to understand a bigger outrage for _that_ than for what happened in the group.
Here's a racist video tho http://youtu.be/vRhkrHxSf6I
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 05:13 am (UTC)You're right: What was done dumb, damaging, ugly, and the signals sent are very clear.
But the clarity of those signals has gotten all muddled up when the less knowledgeable attempt to extract this particular situation to the purity system overall, and then otaku and idol culture overall. Then their condemnations get off-track.
From the Minami-scandal specific post I linked:
I am somewhat annoyed by the way this is depicted in western media. This isn't a "sex scandal". It is a rule-breaking scandal. There is an enormous difference. I am sure ALL the girls have boyfriends (well, apart from the ones who aren't interested in boys, we all know who those are). Nobody actually believes that they don't have boyfriends. It is all about Honme/Tatemae. Your real feelings vs your duty. When a japanese minimum wage burger joint cashier grovels and offers to commit suicide due to the non-optimal temperature of the burger he just sold you, nobody really expects him to care this much about his products. It is just tatemae, the facade he is expected to show. If he didn't, he would probably be fired on the spot.
Idols work the same way. Nobody was surprised when Nozomi Tsuji went from 'virgin who has never seen a cock' to 'two months pregnant with Ultraman', and her post-musume career has been thriving. Or when Fujimoto Miki suddenly got married to a guy she couldn't possibly have been dating due to the no-dating rule. If they break the news themselves it is A-OK. Compare this to Kago Ai, who was completely ruined by her scandals, since they broke in the tabloids. (She apparently was dating older men when she was a Musume member and 12 years old, according to recent interviews, but this is OK since nobody knew.)
Do I think the purity system is bullshit? Yes.
Do I think it should be completely abolished? This is where issues of consent, and behind that, issues of third-wave feminism. I have no clear answer, and that in and of itself tells me something, even if that something is also unclear and complex.
The reason why it appears that fans are more angry about the shoddy reporting than the scandal itself is because we've watched it happen again and again. If you go to the various forums and blogs, EVERY single time a scandal happens the debate over the purity system rages through each thread. The admins of Nihongogo set up a thread just for the discussion of it because they got tired of the same arguments being repeated in every thread, and the single thread was an attempt to force the discussion to continue beyond the same old initial salvos.
We've all had to deal with the purity system, and have each come to our own conclusions and opinions on it through our experiences with it.
So having these external hubs suddenly acting all high and mighty as if they're the first to ever bring these issues up is annoying. They rarely bring anything new to the table because they aren't doing the research first. And for all of the fans who have gone through the scandal roller coaster multiple times, they're impeding the discussion we could have been progressing until they decided to muscle in, accusing all of us of being supportive of the system just because we're fans of idols.
[to reports with such a belligerent/condescending tone] No, we're not. We've gone so much more in-depth than you could imagine, so we don't want to hear it from you. Fuck off.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 05:48 am (UTC)This is an example I'm not bothered by. It's a straightforward condemnation the purity system and the purity system alone. It doesn't try to extrapolate it as something inherent to idol and otaku culture, and targets the things that are truly wrong with the situation.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 07:18 am (UTC)Asianjunkie's arguments are basically the same as mine. The author finishes off with an attack on wotas and fans, though, so why is it different from the ones you dislike?
Also I don't see why you go after western media for being late to the table. Elitism over the fact that you know it better and have been discussing it better? That you're more eligible to discuss it? That will always be the case going from a niche to the mainstream. You can't truly progress it without it going mainstream. Attack the coverage for its inaccuracies, yes, not for the fact that it comes from a 'noob' perspective and that you've already covered it.
It's impossible not to connect this to the system as a whole and the image of purity it sells. That's obvious.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 04:14 pm (UTC)The general attack on wotas and fans is mitigated by the context of Asian Junkie itself, which shows that the writers are idols fans themselves, so their attack on wotas and fans is an attack on a specific group. It doesn't condemn the rest of AKB either.
There are advantages to a no-dating ban, even if the concept is silly. They are the excuses other apologists of the system have listed before, and if those practical reasons were actually the reason it exists, then scandals would only be a rule-breaking problem. But it's not, and the reason why scandals become scandals and not just contract breaches is because of the misogyny of the wota that tout the purity aspect of it. Asian Junkie targets the latter, and especially the slut-shaming aspect, and doesn't go on a rampage about all of the other "problems" with the group that the western outlets are going on about.
It's not just western media being late to the table. It's that they're acting like they're not, acting like they know it all, never acknowledging that others have already done a lot a the research and discussion legwork and hey, maybe those research inaccuracies wouldn't have been a problem if they had consulted those people in the first place? And like I said before, they act like they're bringing the shining truth of feminism and progress to us primitive unknowing complacent barbarians.
It's impossible not to connect this to a larger misogyny problem that should be addressed, sure, but a little bit of purity and idols can mix, as shown by their contemporary western counterparts. Idol and otaku culture do not have to be tied to purity. Hell, the scifi/fantasy geek culture side of things has sometimes been progressive on social issues.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 05:27 pm (UTC)I don't expect the following to be controversial on this particular thread, but who knows:
(1) Asian Junkie is right that "You don't understand the culture" is not in itself an argument, it's a diversionary tactic. I'll add it's not an argument even when it's true. It's simply not an argument.
(2) The internationally ignorant self-righteous may be doing good here by embarrassing the fuck out of the Japanese idol system.
(3) The internationally ignorant self-righteous (a category that at the moment includes me) are themselves a worthy subject — or target — of analysis, not least for what they're doing to and in their own culture.
(4) Citing someone's social category/demographic characteristics is not an argument, because it does not address what they said. Ditto telling them what their motives are (which no one's been doing on this thread, but which is common all through my Internet universe). But noting someone's social characteristics may say something interesting about their context, if you follow up by saying something interesting about their context.
I tend to express plenty of uncertainty in my writing on these subjects, but even if I didn't, if I say smart interesting things, I'm saying smart interesting things, no matter who I am, no matter my level of ignorance or knowledge, no matter my motives, no matter my attitude, even if it's condescending. And even if what I say turns out to be wrong.
Maybe an example here would be useful, especially regarding (3). I don't know if you were paying attention to the anti-Taylor idiots a couple of years back,* who were claiming to be feminists, but the problem with them wasn't that they were outsiders to Taylor fandom, but rather that what they said was out-and-out bigoted and stupid and stereotyped and easily refuted. But even that wasn't the core of the problem. The problem was that they refused to recover from their misreadings. But one of my problems was that I was made so unhappy by the conversation that I didn't stick around to see if any of them did eventually recover. What the anti-Taylor idiots were doing, btw, was to insist that Taylor was singing songs that promoted purity and was promoting purity by her dress and demeanor as well, when actually Taylor was singing and doing no such thing. And my problem wasn't that the anti-Taylor idiots were trying to hurt Taylor, but that, (1) what they were doing was basic bullying, even though it was aimed at a superstar who had no idea they existed, and I don't know how to deal with bullying even just observing, and I haven't figured out how to call out people for bullying without being a bully myself, and (2) the liberal-left, of which I suppose I'm a part, I identify with it anyway, pretty much always cripples and pollutes itself with its own ignorance and bigotry. So I was pissed at what the supposedly leftist feminist anti-Taylor idiots were doing to the Left, though my being pissed was self-defeating, since I know damn well that movements for social justice always attract bullies to the cause, or people who are usually nonbullies and but who use politics to let loose with self-righteousness and stupidity they wouldn't normally allow themselves, and do so in ignorant destructive ways. And knowing this, I ought to figure out a way to say to myself, "This just comes with the territory, and I've got to deal with it or sidestep it." But I brood, and flee, instead.
*Not that they've stopped.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 05:59 pm (UTC)(1) Asian Junkie is right that "You don't understand the culture" is not in itself an argument, it's a diversionary tactic. I'll add it's not an argument even when it's true. It's simply not an argument.
(4) Citing someone's social category/demographic characteristics is not an argument, because it does not address what they said. Ditto telling them what their motives are (which no one's been doing on this thread, but which is common all through my Internet universe). But noting someone's social characteristics may say something interesting about their context, if you follow up by saying something interesting about their context.
I agree.
(2) The internationally ignorant self-righteous may be doing good here by embarrassing the fuck out of the Japanese idol system.
I agree. A large movement is necessary to fix the purity system problem, and large movements inevitably can't afford to get it all right, but it's just why the reaction of the fandom to this scandal is different from usual. Like with the Western coverage of Psy and Gangnam Style, I do think it's probably a beneficial thing overall.
Doesn't stop the coverage from annoying me, though, for the reasons stated.
The problem was that they refused to recover from their misreadings.
This is a problem with the purity "discussion" itself, both within the fans and external media now covering it. Everyone makes their initial salvos, no matter their stance, but go beyond that, refusing to acknowledge the possibility of their own misreading, much less try to correct it. So the same opinions are regurgitated at every scandal, no one changes their opinion, and the conversation has about as much direct interaction with each other as any of America's election debates.
I very much respect the way your initial post was written. It made some observations, comparisons, and hypotheses, but without turning them into conclusions, and then listed the unknown topics that might need to be explored before conclusions can be made, and kept the inquiry for information open to beyond those topics, acknowledging that there might be other issues at play that hadn't been considered because of the limits of personal experience/knowledge. The solicitation for potential opposing viewpoints guarantees some measure of direct interaction and self-adjustment of opinions, and the way it's worded somewhat impartially makes it more likely potential opposing viewpoint responders to be open to self-adjustment as well. Progress!
I wish I could remember to hold off on judgement like that more often.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-10 05:38 pm (UTC)