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koganbotLinks to the Mark Sinker–curated conference, Underground/Overground: The Changing Politics of UK Music-Writing 1968-85. By "music writing" he means the sort of thing Simon Frith does, not the sort of thing Jagger & Richard do (not that you should think there's a gap between the two sorts). I believe but I'm not certain that this is edited down (from about 12 hours to 8).
Participants included Richard Williams, Simon Frith, a host of others, including several of my lj friends (Mark,* Hazel, Tom, not that they're around lj anymore).
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-part-1-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt2-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt3-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt5-25th-may-2015 (this is actually part 4 mislabeled)
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85pt5-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt6-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt7
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt8-25th-may-2015
The Who "Substitute"
I haven't (as of 11 June 2015 AM) had a chance to listen myself. Mark wrote some thoughts afterwards, and there was something of a discussion at Freaky Trigger and a good bit less of one on ilX. I managed to be shocked by how inarticulate ilX was, even though I should know better than to expect anything different.** I got frustrated by the inarticulateness of the much-more-articulate Freaky Trigger convo, too; I'll probably manage to get frustrated by the inarticulateness of the conference as well, when I finally listen. But anyway, old Brit rockwrite/musicwrite does not get attended to or thought about much, at least within my earshot, and for me is mostly terra incognito (of the panelists, and not counting the latter-day moderators Hazel & Tom, I've read a lot of Frith, read a little Ingham in the late '70s, read Toop on hip-hop, and as far as I know that's it except for a Richard Williams interview at rockcritics.com). But anyway, as to the question, why care now what they said then, that's like asking why learn another language, why visit another country? For the surprise, for the familiarity, for the new view, because it's there, 'cause the past is different and the past is present. Maybe I can give more specific answers once I listen. If Mark cares, if Simon cares, you're likely to care.
Roxanne Shanté "Roxanne's Revenge (Street Version)"
One more thing: Although I'm actually older than many of the panelists, and probably within a decade of the very oldest, I am nonetheless from a later era (I think most people would put put me in the Chuck Eddy, Rob Sheffield generation, the three of us first appearing in paying publications within a few years of one another); the difference between me and most of the pre-'85ers is I came up in the fanzines, which in effect was a pre-Internet blogosphere, and my zines were, in effect, comment threads. So I'm the conversation era more than the article-review era. That said, the rockwrite/musicwrite people who overall moved and changed me the most were the older ones (and I include songwriters in my def'n of "critic" and "rockwrite/musicwrite"). Maybe that's just 'cause they got there first, but I do think using and mastering some old wheels helped me make my own wheels better than they'd have been otherwise. But then, you all probably gotta learn that lesson yourself, by first trying to invent your own wheel from nothing.
*I don't actually know how much Mark stepped up to a mic, if he did at all.
**But hurrah to my friend Don Allred, who, in a few short bursts, was one of the few reporting what was actually said at the conference. And hurrah to whichever panelist linked the Jefferson Airplane to punk: Grace Slick was my Johnny Rotten — she and Bob Dylan; also, Jorma Kaukonen's gtr into to "Have You Seen The Saucers" was "Search And Destroy" three years early (though you could say both solos were Keef's in "Sympathy For The Devil" several years late). A favorite Grace moment, from 30 Seconds Over Winterland: in "Crown Of Creation" Paul, ultraseriously, is intoning the John Wyndham line, "In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds," and Grace, possibly potted, interjects, "I CAN'T EITHER!"
Participants included Richard Williams, Simon Frith, a host of others, including several of my lj friends (Mark,* Hazel, Tom, not that they're around lj anymore).
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-part-1-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt2-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt3-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt5-25th-may-2015 (this is actually part 4 mislabeled)
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85pt5-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt6-25th-may-2015
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt7
https://www.mixcloud.com/Resonance/undergroundoverground-the-changing-politics-of-uk-music-writing-1968-85-pt8-25th-may-2015
I haven't (as of 11 June 2015 AM) had a chance to listen myself. Mark wrote some thoughts afterwards, and there was something of a discussion at Freaky Trigger and a good bit less of one on ilX. I managed to be shocked by how inarticulate ilX was, even though I should know better than to expect anything different.** I got frustrated by the inarticulateness of the much-more-articulate Freaky Trigger convo, too; I'll probably manage to get frustrated by the inarticulateness of the conference as well, when I finally listen. But anyway, old Brit rockwrite/musicwrite does not get attended to or thought about much, at least within my earshot, and for me is mostly terra incognito (of the panelists, and not counting the latter-day moderators Hazel & Tom, I've read a lot of Frith, read a little Ingham in the late '70s, read Toop on hip-hop, and as far as I know that's it except for a Richard Williams interview at rockcritics.com). But anyway, as to the question, why care now what they said then, that's like asking why learn another language, why visit another country? For the surprise, for the familiarity, for the new view, because it's there, 'cause the past is different and the past is present. Maybe I can give more specific answers once I listen. If Mark cares, if Simon cares, you're likely to care.
One more thing: Although I'm actually older than many of the panelists, and probably within a decade of the very oldest, I am nonetheless from a later era (I think most people would put put me in the Chuck Eddy, Rob Sheffield generation, the three of us first appearing in paying publications within a few years of one another); the difference between me and most of the pre-'85ers is I came up in the fanzines, which in effect was a pre-Internet blogosphere, and my zines were, in effect, comment threads. So I'm the conversation era more than the article-review era. That said, the rockwrite/musicwrite people who overall moved and changed me the most were the older ones (and I include songwriters in my def'n of "critic" and "rockwrite/musicwrite"). Maybe that's just 'cause they got there first, but I do think using and mastering some old wheels helped me make my own wheels better than they'd have been otherwise. But then, you all probably gotta learn that lesson yourself, by first trying to invent your own wheel from nothing.
*I don't actually know how much Mark stepped up to a mic, if he did at all.
**But hurrah to my friend Don Allred, who, in a few short bursts, was one of the few reporting what was actually said at the conference. And hurrah to whichever panelist linked the Jefferson Airplane to punk: Grace Slick was my Johnny Rotten — she and Bob Dylan; also, Jorma Kaukonen's gtr into to "Have You Seen The Saucers" was "Search And Destroy" three years early (though you could say both solos were Keef's in "Sympathy For The Devil" several years late). A favorite Grace moment, from 30 Seconds Over Winterland: in "Crown Of Creation" Paul, ultraseriously, is intoning the John Wyndham line, "In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds," and Grace, possibly potted, interjects, "I CAN'T EITHER!"
