Subjectivity and objectivity must die

Over on Blue Lines Revisited, Tom throws a couple brief criticisms at most music convos about subjectivity, objectivity, and relativism, and I add some pessimistic comments of my own, including this one:

My complaint about the subjectivity/objectivity/relativism conversations, beyond most people's not knowing how to do them, is that what motivates the conversations gets sidestepped in the actual conversations themselves. The conversations arise from an uneasiness with the conventions for discussing and judging music, those conventions forcing us to make judgments but putting those judgments up for question and debate. And what the subjectivity/objectivity/relativism conversation generally avoids or botches is the question of authority: What authorizes what we say about music, and [a question that's more subterranean] who authorizes it? The subjectivity/objectivity/relativism terminology is awful because it gives us two dumb choices neither of which matches actual social practice: "subjectivity" tells us that we can say whatever we want, "objectivity" tells us that it's the facts that authorize what we say. Neither choice is correct, neither corresponds to what we actually do, which is to constantly make judgments about the music, judgments that, as I said, are up for question and debate. And the subjectivity/objectivity/relativism convo is generally a dishonest way to influence the debate by trying to persuade someone not to question judgments - either 'cause the judgments are "subjective" so our only choice is to agree to disagree or because they're "objective" hence based on facts about which we're not allowed to disagree, supposedly - so almost everything that actually goes into the judgments (including but hardly limited to where the music is being listened to, why, and who with) is avoided in the subjectivity/objectivity/relativism discussion... except when I'm part of the discussion, in which case you'll find me recommending that we eliminate the words "subjective" and "objective" from the language altogether and insisting that no one gets to use the word "relativism" without explaining what the hell he or she means by it.

Erika, where are you?

Oh, the Jukebox is going on again about Lily in a way that once again makes me very grumpy. I mean jeez, the song isn't about the only possible choices that any young woman may have but about the choices some women feel they have, with popstar Lily the songwriter who will never be in her protagonist's exact situation nevertheless having equivalent feelings burnt into her, not the protagonist's potential shutdown but her own. (How many women pop singers are skipping merrily into their thirties with their careers intact?)

I thought Lily's phrase "in this day and age" was a deliberate distancing device, an obvious archaism that lets us know that the diction isn't a hundred percent Lily's. Maybe I'm not right about that, but obv obv obv Lily knows that the protagonist doesn't represent all women.

I do like Xhuxk's and Lex's takes even though they're contrary to one another and somewhat contrary to what I just said, but some of the other guys just don't want to give Lily a break. They're looking to feel superior. I wonder that they don't wonder why they want to beat Lily down so much. (Of course, I write plenty of reviews where I'm coming off as superior, but I'm usually right.)

I generally do like the Jukebox crew, though 'cause of old ilX shit it doesn't feel like a safe place to me, which isn't its fault and probably those few Jukeboxers who were anywhere near the ilX creepy stuff have outgrown it (and were only a wee bit involved in the first place) so these fears are just holdovers, but there are also just too many other things in my queue today... but if Erika had shown up for the convo you can bet I'd been in it, and I don't know why she didn't. She was excellent on this song here. Erika, where are you? If I'd known you weren't going to show I'd have cribbed your ideas.

I remember Martin Kavka saying about Brooks & Dunn's "Cowgirls Don't Cry": "Dolly Parton wouldn't stand for this, would she?" And my thought was, yeah, but the song isn't about Dolly Parton, and why can't this other woman also be a subject for a song? (I do think I got Martin to come around a bit on that song.)

[To anticipate Will's request: yeah I might add the Lily part of this post - but not the stuff about the Jukeboxers - to the Jukebox comment thread, but I really want to set my mind elsewhere today. Wish I were more involved in the day-to-day Jukebox convo but it's been coming too fast for me over the last couple of months.]