ps my getting stuck a bit unhelpfully on this issue is a good example of who/why "filibusters" (or incompletion of ideas) arise: i am caught up in this question bcz i am writin a big giant thinkpiece abt the use -- and dangers -- of avant-garde movements, which cluster round some technique or faith or obsession or THING (and its justification); the "broad" or "social" justification is that they are out-of-step, and it is valuable for ppl to be out of step -- which is a hindsight rationalisation of "where society ends up" when the conflict between the avant-garde and the mainstream is "resolved" (whether pragmatically or otherwise)... where society has moved to when the conflict is resolved is better than where it was when the conflict was raging, but this "where" that we've ended up in may only have very oblique connection to the shape of the justification the avant-garde gave for its obsessive crankiness

so anyway, this is what i'm currently thinking about and what i want to use frank's questions for -- and (to frank's annoyance) i will drop out of the discussion not when frank's questions are answered, but when i get useful energy and shape for MY project