And since I've linked the ilX thread, I'll say that in at least some of what I was saying about Hegel and Marx I was talking out my ass, not having read enough of them, and other than that I'm as happy with what I wrote on that thread as I am with anything I've ever written. And I nonetheless think that the thread was profoundly dysfunctional, as all conversations I've ever had about "theory" are. And as I said in my main post, the dysfunction itself ought to be a subject for research and inquiry.

Also, I misstated a few things about Aristotle (I should have talked about a general concept of change, rather than calling everything "motion"), none of which harm the point I was making at all.